Low Five Gaming
Welcome to Low Five Gaming, the book club-style podcast where two brothers, Alex and Luke, share their lifelong love for video games through engaging conversations and friendly debates. If you're a passionate gamer, a casual fan, or just have a soft spot for the classics, our laid-back, conversational approach will make you feel right at home.
Each month, we'll explore the game of the moment or revisit a beloved classic, satisfying your gaming cravings with our unique blend of humor, insight, and personal experiences. Whether it's reminiscing about crunchy classics like Prince of Persia (89), getting hyped about the latest Nintendo Direct, or diving into deep discussions on FPGA consoles (much to Luke's chagrin), Low Five Gaming is your go-to podcast for all things gaming.
As brothers with a lifelong bond, Alex and Luke bring a genuine camaraderie and relatable banter to every episode, making it easy for you to connect with fellow gamers who truly understand your love for the virtual world. So, if you're looking to join a gaming community where you can enjoy thought-provoking conversations about your favorite games, look no further than Low Five Gaming. You're also invited to join the conversation in our Discord server!
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Low Five Gaming
LFF Ep. 001: Marco, Developer of Pine Creek
Strap in for the inaugural episode of Low Five Friends, where we geek out with Marco, the visionary behind the retro revival hit Pine Creek on Game Boy Color. Marco pulls back the curtain on creating a game that strikes a perfect balance between heartfelt nostalgia and fresh creativity, all while staying true to his Latin American roots.
Join us as Marco recounts the challenges and quirks of game development, shares his personal insights on cultural representation in gaming, and even debates the ultimate taco. He’ll also tease his next project, a monster-battling adventure set against the backdrop of a mythical Mexico.
Check out Pine Creek on Itch.io, buy the digital or physical copy at incube8 Games, or get immersed in its 3D update on Steam.
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Theme music is by AJ Norman. Design assets were created by Studio Day Job.
Low Five Gaming is a Studio Low Five Production.
Hey there, welcome to Low5Friends, the new companion podcast to Low5Gaming, where we get to chat with the creators, players and voices that define the games that we love. My name is Alex, your host, and in this inaugural episode, I had the great pleasure of interviewing Marco of Carmelo Electronics. Marco is the developer of Pine Creek, a Game Boy Color game that was released in 2021. That's right, 2021. We got people out here developing video games for the Game Boy. Still, that's wild, and I'm absolutely here for it. So much so we have a mainline episode on Pine Creek as well. I do encourage you to check that out if you haven't already.
Speaker 1:Luke and I get into it. On that one about the game, our experience with it, we do enter spoiler territory. We let you know when that's going to happen so you can, uh, either fast forward or you take the time to play it. This one's a shorty, you know. You put about three hours into it to beat this one, but, that said, in this, uh, in this episode with Marco, we avoid spoilers, so you're safe from those. I do encourage you to check out the game. You can find it at incubatecom as well as itchio. Go out there and support Marco. He put a lot of you know put his heart and soul into this one and you can really see it. It's a real treat to play. I'll slap some links in the show notes for you, but without further ado. My interview with Marco.
Speaker 2:Your English is great, by the way. It's very. You're doing great so far, man, and it's better than my Spanish.
Speaker 3:Well, thank you, I've been practicing, that's great man.
Speaker 2:Did you learn English in school or are you learning it on your own?
Speaker 3:Yeah, here learning English is mandatory from a young age because it's a necessity to work. But it kind of got better after I started working with international artists, so I needed in order to work with them. My English gradually became more fluent and better Never.
Speaker 2:It was worse before.
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, practice makes perfect man, and it's funny. I lived in Spain for a while and I got to practice my Spanish and all my friends that I made there. They would tease me because I'm from minnesota in the us, so I have a midwestern accent, my english has a midwestern accent, but then the spanish we learn is mexican spanish and the spanish people are a little pretentious, yeah, about their language. So they would tease me because they'd be like what is that? What is that dirty Spanish you're speaking? But you know, whatever, it was fun.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's a whole subject. It's kind of a fight about what's the true Spanish. Totally, it's actually harder I think it will be harder to learn Spanish from Spain you will say the original Spanish than Mexican Spanish. I think Mexican Spanish is easier to pronounce.
Speaker 2:I tend to. I tend to agree. So when I was in Spain, I was in um, I was in southern Spain, so like Andalusia they, they say with like a instead of a, you know, so it's like there's almost like a lisp to it. So I had to get used to that, like if I was saying gracias, it was like man, it was just tough, but you know it was, it was a great experience and you know it's. I think languages are important and cool and I think it's, you know it's, it's awesome to to learn other people's languages and to just have an understanding of it, and so I I commend you on your english, man, you're it's, it's really quite good thanks, yeah, some, some, some movies from spain.
Speaker 2:I have to watch them with subtitles yeah I bet that will tell you about the difference in accent, of course well, today we're we're talking about your game, pine creek, which is an adventure game focused on exploration and investigation, and it was released not too long ago, actually in October of 2021. So about three years ago. But the reason that I find that really interesting is because it was released for the Game Boy and the Game Boy Color, which are old systems, so it's a new game on an old system. But before we get into talking too much about the game, marco, I'm curious. Here in Minnesota in the past few years, birria tacos have made their way up north and there's a fun reference in your game to tacos al pastor. And I'm curious which do you think is better?
Speaker 3:Tacos al pastor. Or what kind of tacos did you say, yeah, birria, do you have birria tacos? Oh, that's a tough one.
Speaker 2:Tacos al pastor, or what kind of tacos did you say yeah, birria Do you have birria tacos.
Speaker 3:Oh, that's a tough one, that's a tough one, I'd say tacos al pastor. Right on Because you can eat them at any hour in the day. Birria tacos here you usually just eat them in the morning. It's kind of breakfast here. Oh, interesting, it's not. You eat that in other hours of the day, but tacos al pastor do, that would be my pick.
Speaker 2:I can dig it, man, I think another favorite taco of mine I really love Tacos de Lengua, so the tacos are quite good. You can't really go wrong with Tacos Al Pastor, so you're onto something there when you're getting them. Do you have a favorite restaurant? Do you make them at home? I know that's probably a little difficult to make at home because they are done on a spit, so where do you get your tacos?
Speaker 3:Oh, I usually go to the taqueria, just as I put them in the game. These are just restaurants that serve only tacos, al pastor, and they use this, how they call it, rosticeries. It's. They're called trompos here, where they put the slices of meat in a stick and they cut them in slices and uh and it's, it's a, it's a fun experience. Uh, it's a kind of a heartfelt thing. Uh, I don't know what's the word, but it's like, it's like comfortable to me. I'd say, uh, like going to McDonald's the word, but it's like, it's like comfortable to me. I'd say, like going to mcdonald's or something. Mcdonald's or something.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love it so I love that inclusion in your game. There's actually in pine creek. There's a lot of different areas where you've interjected pieces of your life and your culture in fun ways and you know you mentioned earlier when we were talking, that it's. You know there's definitely a lot of dark themes or adult themes in the game, but I think that you balance that in a really interesting way, one with the visual style of the game, but more so even with just the comedy that you interject in the dialogue and some of those heartfelt pieces of your own life that you can see in the game. Like that inclusion of the Tacos Alpha store.
Speaker 2:I thought was really cool. Yes, which is fun, man. It's like for a Game Boy game. There's a lot of layers and depth. But I do have a few questions about the Game Boy. I was doing a little digging and I read on the Internet and I have to assume that you made a game for the Game Boy, so you must be a fan of the Game Boy system. Yeah, so can you tell me a little bit more about that? Like, when did you, when did you first start playing the Game Boy?
Speaker 3:The Game Boy. As far as I can remember it was an obsession to me. I saw it advertised on TV and magazines and as a kid I just thought it had the perfect design. I still do think it has a perfect minimalistic design, particularly the Game Boy Color. It just looks so pretty. I just love the hardware and its design and also the software. The games were fun and easy to pick up, with cute graphics, and I remember that it's probably hard to understand how much of an obsession the Game Boy was to me as a kid and my parents couldn't afford one, so I just read about the system on magazines and games before I could get one eventually.
Speaker 2:I love that man. That's similar to my experience. My parents, I mean. You can see my background. I have a lot of games now in my adult life but as a child, you know, growing up, I didn't have any video game systems until I was a bit older and I didn't have the Game Boy and I knew about it. I had friends that had it and they would let me borrow theirs. So a lot of my first experiences with the Game Boy was the neighbors would let me borrow their Game Boy systems and I would play them at my house for a few days before I had to return them. But very similar man. And then then like looking at the, the different magazines in the united states, in the in minnesota we get the newspaper that would come and there was a section that I would have all of the advertisements for big stores like target, best buy, that type of thing. I would flip through and I would look at all the different video game stuff and just wish that I had them yeah, we had.
Speaker 3:We have the exact same story, as it seems.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's very cool. So what are some of your favorite games on the Game Boy other than your own?
Speaker 3:Well, I have to say it's pretty. It's probably very lame, but the Pokemon games. I was just crazy about the Pokemon series, in particular Pokemon Crystal, and you can tell in the graphics of Pine Creek. It's fairly obvious that as I play the games I thought that world building, that contemporary world building, in an RPG game on the Game Boy could give you so much stories. Because the Pokemon has not a really great story. It has fantastic gameplay, fantastic world building. It's a perfect game for a kid.
Speaker 3:But, I thought in my mind I kind of invented stories in the towns that things that could happen to every NPC, and I ended up doing that in my own game 25 years later, doing that in my own game 20, 25 years later. So, and also DuckTales I played a lot of DuckTales A Smurf game. Yeah, back then I played what I had, what I could, and I was happy about it. So I didn't have much games to pick my favorites, the Ninja Turtles games were awesome. Those ones I like as well.
Speaker 2:The Mario games are good too. I think one of my favorites, outside of what you mentioned, is the Legend of Zelda Link's Awakening yeah, Link's.
Speaker 3:Awakening. Yeah, that was a great game, and also I was amazed that if you had the game boy printer, you could print some pictures that the game took, and I thought that was exciting, but I could never get my hands in one in a game boy printer. And I had a game boy camera, though, and that was pretty fun, but not the Game Boy printer.
Speaker 2:I was reading. Someone did an interview with you and you mentioned that you didn't always and you mentioned here too you didn't always. You weren't always able to have the, the systems or the video games that you wanted as a kid. But in your adult life you have gone out and you know whether it's eBay or whatever and purchase some of those and I'm curious what those systems are and why they're important to you.
Speaker 3:Yeah, when I started having my own money, I guess the first or second thing I started to do was to purchase the consoles I wanted. The first one was the Nintendo 64. And I have two now. One is a clear purple version. It looks so cool that game with games like F-Zero and Super Mario and Pokemon Snap Pokemon Stadium, smash Bros and uh, pokemon snap, pokemon stadium and smash bros. Uh, I, I got lucky to to get those classic games because right now they're so expensive game collecting is getting expensive.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah it exploded in these crazy prices right now. The second one I got was GameCube, because I think the form factor is pretty good. It's so pretty as well. Nintendo consoles are so pretty but they were so expensive. Nintendo products have always been so expensive here. They kind of don't adjust the prices for the economy here, so it was kind of a commodity for the middle class.
Speaker 3:Sure, and after that I got a Dreamcast. That's another fantastic console. It has great games. I love that. They are so colorful and with great music. The controller, I think, is very pretty, even though it lacks another thumb stick, and the Vue Mew. The Vue Mew is, I think that's. That was a great idea and it's so sad that the Dreamcast failed at the end as a console and I also have a PlayStation 3 because it had so much exclusives that you couldn't play Aisle Square Right, you couldn't even emulate those games. So I had to have the real console and the games which they were very cheap a few years ago. I think they are still very cheap the PlayStation 3 games and yeah, yeah, those are the consoles I have and portables. I have a new 3DS because I needed to check that 3D effect and a couple of Game Boys, and that's it, and a PSP. That's the other thing I got.
Speaker 2:That's a good collection, man, a lot of good games on those systems. And I agree with you there's something you know Nintendo. They made a lot of really cool systems that look cool and they're fun to play. And I agree with you too with the Dreamcast. It's sad that that was the end of Sega's. You know their hardware tenure, but they had a lot of cool games on there and it's a fun one to have now tenure, but a lot of cool games on there and it's it's a fun one to have now.
Speaker 2:So I noticed that you're currently working on a new game and I'd like to talk about that a little later, but you mentioned that you you're putting a lot of effort into representing very niche aspects of your culture in this new game. You mentioned that you realize not a lot of people understand the references or the jokes, and I feel like that essence was also present in pine creek. You did some of the same, maybe not as much, but it was definitely there and it's something that I really loved about pine creek. And even when I didn't understand the jokes or the references, I thought it was cool because I could see that you were putting them in there and I would just love to know a little bit more about uh. Why do you think you find yourself doing this in your games?
Speaker 3:Well, first of all, it's kind of a natural thing and also the competition is very hard out there. I think putting a lot of my surroundings and my own life experiences will make me, will make my work, stand out from the rest, because, uh, each one's life experience and worldview is unique and, uh, that will make it stand out from. From example, uh, ai generated bullshit and so, and game development is, it's an art result. For first world countries, it's really hard to do games like here in Latin America or in other poorer countries, so that's why you see a lot of first world cultures represented in games. I just see a lot of Viking games, samurai games, games based in the US, games based in Europe, but you don't get to see much about Latin American culture, my culture. I never get to see cities like mine, streets like where I live in, food stands that look like the places I go to visit, and themes, conversations that I see in my life, my daily life, and I think I can.
Speaker 3:You can make so much fun stories, so much fun games based on that. That. That's what I want to do, that's what I want people to see that there are much stories, there are much culture here that are fun as well or interesting or very interesting, and it's a huge continent, it's a huge culture with many, many colors, and it's sad to me that most few developers here in mexico just talk about pre-hispanic cultures like the. If they make a game, they make a game about the aztecs or the or the mayas or something. But I think right now the culture, the contemporary culture, can give you so much more content, so much fun gameplay ideas, so much fun stories or interesting or dark or thoughtful. So that's what I'm trying to do with my games and I think probably that it probably is not easy to sell, uh, that, probably that will not make me rich or commercial, but it will make me stand out and it's fun for me. I have fun doing this. I don't know if that answers your question.
Speaker 2:It does. Yeah, no, for sure. I think that's a beautiful answer to the question. Playing Pine Creek, I thought it was really cool and interesting how you interjected flavors of Mexican culture, but it seemed to me that Pine Creek likely took place in, like the United States or somewhere that wasn't Mexico.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's weird because it started in the US. It started like a story based in the US, but I couldn't help. I just I couldn't help putting stuff from my own life. I didn't cut that content, I just left it.
Speaker 2:I'm so glad that you kept it in.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and people kind of find it weird, but nobody has an issue with it and I I thought it was a relief.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I loved it. Man, I think that was some of uh, that was some of the favorite things for me. Maybe I'm a weird person, I don't know, but I thought that was really cool and it was. It was a lot of fun to. You know, there's so much talking to the different NPCs within this game. You know you can, once you figure out how the game works, you can maybe streamline and skip certain conversations, but I had a lot of fun going each day in the game and talking to everyone I ran into because everyone had something fun to say and that's, I mean, that's you, that's you writing that stuff.
Speaker 2:And I think that, like you know, when you go to the taqueria and you talk to, there's a woman there who has, you know, she's telling her story about how, like she's from Mexico and she, and that's when they tell the, that's when you tell the story about the tacos al pastor, I think.
Speaker 2:But it was just like it was fun to have those little bits in there and to have like little pieces of Mexican culture in this game that takes place in, you know, the United States and Pine Creek or whatever. Honestly, that's, that's true to the experience here in the United States, I would say, just because you know, in the United States and Minnesota especially, but all over we have a lot of Mexican immigrants and a huge part of our culture here is that, that influence from Mexico. So I thought for me it was actually pretty natural to see that type of thing in the game. So I'm I'm really glad that you included it, because for me it really it gave the, it gave the game a lot of life and a lot of heart, which I thought was was really cool.
Speaker 3:Well, thank you so much, that's. That's really nice to hear and a relief. Yeah, I was surprised how many American players already know tacos al pastor and already know like birria tacos, and some people say that in LA they got better tacos than here.
Speaker 2:Someday I'll try to prove that, You'll have to give it a test. That's funny. When I was in high school, back when I was about 17, I had the opportunity to go down to Nogales and learn about the border in Mexico and Arizona. While I was there, I stayed with the family and they they introduced me to chorizo tacos, which I still love to this day.
Speaker 2:Yeah, another favorite, yeah, the son of that family. He took us out to get tacos that night and this was you know, this is a while ago now, uh when he took us to get tacos and at the time, what we call them here tacos the tacos that were everywhere here in minnesota we call mom tacos, which is like not the tacos that I experienced in mexico. It took a long time for that style of taco to make it up here. Mom tacos would be like the hard shells that you get from the store. Then you just ground beef and with some seasoning and and some sprinkled processed cheese on top, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, but not anymore. We finally caught up a little bit. The influence has made it up here.
Speaker 3:Yeah, they tried to bring Taco Bell here in Mexico. Oh sure yeah, it just miserably failed. They are their own thing. They are their own thing. They call it Tex-Mex.
Speaker 2:So there's another question I have about this inclusion and some of your tastes into the game. There's a really fun, really niche inclusion that you run into at one of the arcade cabinets when your character goes to the arcade and it plays out a scene from my Dinner with Andre and I was wondering if you could tell me a little bit more about that because it was just such like I haven't seen that movie but when I saw that I just thought it was so cool and I had to look it up and I'm just curious if you can tell me a little bit about that inclusion.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, I included it for two things, two things. One, it was a reference to the Simpsons. I don't know if you watched that episode. Martin is playing the arcade game of my Dinner with Andre and it just has one option and one button, which is tell me more, and the characters keep playing. Yeah, it was a reference to that.
Speaker 3:And the other point is because I love the movie and it's a movie just about two people talking and it sounds like the most boring movie ever, but the things they talk and the way they talk, I think it's marvelous. It's a classic to me and also has some pretty deep quotes that resonate to me as an adult right now, like one from the protagonist that says, like when I was young. Protagonist that says like, uh, when I was young, I thought a lot about music and art, and now, as an adult, the only thing I think, the only thing I think about, is money and and it's sad, but at the same time you realize that it's a thing everybody goes through at some point in their life. That's why I included that movie.
Speaker 2:I love that. I don't know if I've seen that particular Simpsons episode. I'm going to look it up. Know, if I've seen that particular simpsons episode? I'm going to, I'm going to look it up. And uh, just reading a little bit about the movie, I very much want to watch it now, after after being introduced to it in the game, and I'll have to look at, I'll have to find that simpsons episode too yeah, watch that episode.
Speaker 3:You'll crack a laugh in that scene I like it another fun inclusion.
Speaker 2:That happens in the arcade, but also right away when your character wakes up in his bedroom. There's a like a little super nintendo there that you can go play, and the game on there that starts up is uh, heroes of peristokia, I believe, or peristrokia perestroika.
Speaker 2:I don't know the russian pronunciation, but both me and my brother and co-host Luke, when that happened in the game, we loved it. I texted him and he was like this is I think the character says something about this game is terrible or something. And Luke, he messaged me. He's like I don't know what he's talking about. This game is awesome because it's fun and it's a. It's a mini game, but I really love that inclusion and it mimics. It mimics like the Pokemon game, right when you have it's like a Russian feel to it. That's very like a communist.
Speaker 3:It's like a communist Pokemon mini game and I'm just wondering if you can tell me a little bit more about that. Yeah, yeah, I think it's fun because it's it's so stupid. It's so stupid. The idea of a bureaucratic, communist Pokemon battle game I don't know why it occurred to me, it just happened and it's the idea of communist history and the USSR history is kind of.
Speaker 3:It was kind of fresh in my mind because in my parents' and uncles' libraries there are a lot of history books and communist books and books about everything. But yeah, it a very uh full of lefties, uh revolutionary time in the 70s here in mexico. So they have a lot of books about that and that's. And I I read uh kind of a lot of that, those books, when I was teenager, a teenage, and uh, that's why it was fresh. I had a lot of that in my mind and a lot of Pokemon in my mind that it was just natural to put those things together in a kind of a stupid mini game. Yeah, so that's why it was so successful that I'm in uh developing that idea further in the next game oh, no way, I love it.
Speaker 2:Well, that's awesome, man. I think that's it's it is. You're right, it's like this dumb, stupid, like, but fun thing that you've included. But I also think that that goes back to what we're saying about how there's there's pieces, there's pieces of you in this game and I think that's really beautiful and I think one of the the most apparent. Besides, like some of these obscure references, one of the most apparent parts of you being in this game is, I'm pretty sure you've included yourself in it as an npc at towards the end of the game, because you, can you can talk
Speaker 2:to someone and it's uh, it's a developer talking about the, the hardships of their craft, the hardships of developing an indie game, and also a little bit about the turmoil in the world at the time. Uh, because I have to assume that you were developing this game. It was released in 2021, so you're probably developing it around 2019, 2020, which was right around when the pandemic started. Yeah, and then also there's mention of the George Floyd in this conversation that the NPC has, which was, I thought it's a really cool inclusion Because I think that, one, it shows you've interjected yourself into the game, which is, I think, really awesome. But two, it also makes it it's like a time capsule of sort. You know, it shows folks that are playing like.
Speaker 2:It gives people an idea of maybe a little bit what was going on in your life and the world at the time, that that this was making. And I think that's even more interesting when you consider that this game is made for the Game Boy, the Game Boy Color, which is an old system, but it's new software, a new video game on an old system, and I just think there's everything about that. I just really, really enjoyed. And for me, we have all experienced a pandemic and we all experienced George Floyd in our own ways. But it really hit home for me because I'm from Minneapolis, where George Floyd was from, so it was just really cool to see that included in your game. So, one, I just want to say that was cool. And two, I want to say thank you.
Speaker 2:Thank you for having that in there.
Speaker 3:Thank you very much. Yeah, yeah, I included myself as a way to take things out of my chest. I really thought the world was ending back then, and also my world, because in money terms it was a shit time. So making games is hard and you don't make a lot of money about it. And then the pandemic started Right Right before I was about to release a game, there were riots for what happened to George Floyd and the world felt too serious. Yeah, very, very serious. At the time, like that, I was, yeah, kind of scared. I thought it was the end of it all. Kind of scared, I thought it was the end of it all. So, yeah, it was a very personal experience working on that game. I don't, I don't think anyone expects that kind of game for the game boy.
Speaker 2:No, that's why I think that's one of the reasons I really enjoyed this game so much is because it it, uh, it challenges much like the Game Boy. I love the Game Boy and I love games that were made during the Game Boy's reign, like when it was first released, you know. But but they're typically pretty light. A lot of them are pretty arcadey. There are story driven games for the Game Boy, but they're less so than some of the more arcade type games that are on the Game Boy, just by nature of the what the system is, that's like.
Speaker 2:One reason why I think that Pine Creek was really fun for me is because it is a story driven game that interjects. You know a lot of things that were happening in the world and then you know some very dark themes, which is something that you don't necessarily see on original game boy games. You know the games that were made 20, 30 years ago. Yeah, it's all very interesting. So I'm curious with the development of pine creek, what, what kind of, was your inspiration to start working on the game, like why, what led you to create pine?
Speaker 3:well, I saw the announcement of a new game engine for the Game Boy called GB Studio, and I tried it. I saw a couple of games that were being developed for it, like Deadeus Deadeus I don't know how people pronounce that game and I thought it was a pretty cool game. People pronounce that game and I thought it was a pretty cool game and uh, I saw it was kind of easier to make a game there and, uh, I I loved the system. I had the system. Uh, I I already had some experience with game engines. I just thought that this is it, this is what I want to make right now, and just got to work. Uh, I thought I thought I will make a, a very short game, a very like game jam style game that will take me a couple of weeks or months, but uh, took took way longer than that. But yeah, that that was mainly the reason I saw the opportunity to do it and I did it you know it's interesting.
Speaker 2:You know the gb studio. There's a you and um, I think is his artist name is isma, who does I'm also not sure how to pronounce it, but I say dadeus. So that's another cool game. There's, there's some similarities, I would say, between your game and his game, and part of that, I think, is the themes, and then another part of that, I think, is the gb studio system me getting into some of these uh different games that have been made more recently on gb studio.
Speaker 2:I was interested to see how gb studio works, so I did download it to check it out. It's marketed as something that's very and it is probably easier than writing code from scratch. I can't deny that. But it's not as easy as I thought it would be. No, it's not, it's really hard. So, so kudos, I know it's. It's kind of marketed as this like, oh, you easily make your game. But I got in there and I was like, nah, my, I'm not gonna, it's not gonna work as easy as I'd hoped. No, yeah, it's not that easy, right, right. So you mentioned the days, but did you have any other uh games in mind as inspiration, or did you kind of like start from scratch with pine creek?
Speaker 3:uh, yeah, uh, first of all, uh, I think there are many new kind of horror games, uh, for the system, because, uh, it's not that they're uh easy, but they are. It's like. It's like movies, horror movies or slasher movies. You need less of a budget to make them and you can have a greater impact with less resources doing horror stories. But I don't know what genre to put really the game, because it also has detective elements. It's horror. But someone said that it's real horror, not like supernatural or fantasy horror. It's real horror, which is a kind of different subgenre. But what was the question?
Speaker 1:I'm a pretty scary person sometimes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was just wondering what kind of games you had in mind and what kind of inspiration to start the game.
Speaker 3:Oh, yeah, right.
Speaker 2:You know. So I think that the horror genre and then, yeah, I also had Shenmue.
Speaker 3:I had Shenmue really fresh in my mind, I was playing it a lot Interesting. I had Shenmue really fresh in my mind, I was playing it a lot. Ah, interesting, yeah, and that kind of game structure. I tried to imitate it in the game.
Speaker 2:Ah okay, I can see that.
Speaker 3:Cool. Yeah, I'm sure if you try to see it you'll see it very clearly how Shenmue inspired the gameplay.
Speaker 2:I'm curious. The characters, you know there's a lot of. There's the main characters in Pine Creek and then there's a lot of NPCs. Each is very unique and engaging. Each has a special personality and I'm just wondering if you could share with me a little bit how you develop these characters and their stories. You know, like, what was your process and what kind of things were you thinking about when you were creating dialogue for each of the npcs?
Speaker 3:well, for the npcs, there are like three kinds of npcs the, the protagonists like uh, atzo, cassidy and karen uh they're based, their personalities are based on probably shouldn't say this, but people. I know as a writer you eventually do that. You project your own life on your fiction and not not, uh, not exactly like people. They mixed and also real people with uh characters from series or movies.
Speaker 3:Like the name cassidy, I took it from the comic book series preacher, okay yeah I, I, I like that, that, that it has so much personality, even though it's a dick. Yeah, that's what has a little bit about me, if that's not a bit obvious, but obviously I didn't uncover a huge conspiracy. Also, the other NPCs, the kind that follow the story, are based on series like Twin Peaks or or police stories. Some other characters like Jaime from Salmon Crack, the one that's watching UFOs that character is based on a popular TV personality here in Mexico called Jaime Maussan, which is famous for being a UFO watcher and UFO specialist. It's very popular here, very popular here.
Speaker 3:These are very, like I said, very niche, very niche topics, characters and also for the NPCs in the city in Apricot City, those that don't have any relation to the story. They have their own character arcs. I include them because I always wanted NPCs that had their own lives, their own stories. I think that will make our world richer. But it's really hard to do. It's really hard to give character arcs and personalities to 50 plus NPCs and it was a cool idea and also a stupid idea because I spent another four months writing dialogue for those NPCs. It was really, really painful in the development but it paid well at the end and I think I will replicate that in future games, even though it's really hard and unnecessary in gameplay terms.
Speaker 2:I mean, the thing is, I think one of the reasons that I love your game so much is because you put that time into it.
Speaker 2:There's a lot of games out there that you talk to an NPC and it's boring. I don't need to talk to them it's, I'll just skip it. But for me, when I played Pine Creek, your game I wanted to. I wanted to talk to each character, because every single of those characters whether it's you know, around 50, all of them had their own personality.
Speaker 2:So the time that you put in there, it's, you know, is quite the challenge, but in there, it's, you know, it was quite the challenge, but I think it paid off, in the sense that I think that's something that I really loved about Pine Creek is that I could have went through to where I could maybe figure out what I was supposed to do next, but I didn't care to do it right away. I wanted to go talk to every single person that I could that day to see what they had to say, because it was usually something that was like engaging or fun, and not a single character in that game is the same. So you did a great job of giving each of those NPCs that personality that you were trying to give them so great job.
Speaker 3:Thank you so much. I think I did it also because I hate filler in games. I hate filler in games like Ubisoft games, boring side quests and and boring npcs and uh, just content that doesn't make sense. And this ai generated bullshit is just adding to the to my horror in right in seeing uh hollow content is I hate that.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I agree.
Speaker 2:You mentioned, you know, obviously, creating all this dialogue for 50 different NPCs. That was a big challenge that took months to do. I'm wondering about what are some of the other challenges that happened while developing, you know, for the Game Boy, and how you overcame them.
Speaker 3:Well, code is hard and also limitations boost creativity. I agree with that because it makes your mind come up with creative, new, fun ideas. But also the process of debugging code and having to redraw backgrounds, rewrite dialogues and bug testing. Bug testing is a nightmare and I guess that's why the companies have huge Q&A teams and game teachers, because it's a whole job by itself and it takes a lot of time from the creative process. It's dull and painful and boring, but you have to do it and some people just keep it and then that gives us a result a very buggy game. I understand that because bug testing is really horrible. But yeah, that that was the worst part about making a game that makes sense.
Speaker 2:So pine creek covers some you mentioned earlier and it's apparent even at the get-go. There's a warning when the game starts, just saying that pine creek covers some more heavy adult content. And I think that this is interesting not only for the story, but it's also especially interesting considering the medium of the game boy, just because you know I was speaking a little bit earlier how that when the Game Boy was first came out, the games that were made for it were typically lighter. You know you have like your Kirby's and stuff like that, which is very like you know it's.
Speaker 2:It's there's not a lot to it in terms of it's a fun little platformer, but that's all it's meant to be. And I'm just wondering you know what inspired you to take this route and how you think those themes work in the Game Boy ecosystem. So, like, what kind of really motivated you to dive into that real horror aspect of Pine Creek and how do you think that benefits the game in the end, being that it's on the Game Boy?
Speaker 3:I don't know, maybe because it's a dead system, maybe because Nintendo doesn't care anymore about what is released on it. I felt safe to do it and because I didn't have an audience, nobody was expecting anything from me. I didn't know if it could be a success, if I could make money about it, if anyone will play it, so I felt so free doing it that I just did it. It was kind of like writing a book that you don't plan to. You don't have any expectations out of it, so that gives you freedom to do whatever you want. So, yeah, that was basically my the reason to feel free to talk about those subjects, because if I was doing a game for a I don't know the Nintendo Switch, or for a publisher, I would have felt constrained for censorship or not hitting sales numbers, which also happened because when Incubate Games reached me to publish the game, they asked me for some small changes. It had way more swearing in the 1.0 version than the Incubate released version.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's interesting, I played. I played it. You know I bought it via incubate, so I'm I have that version. I'd be curious to see it's. It's funny that you know publisher would decide to do that, because maybe it's just me but like I'd, you know the swears that were in there. It's just, it's stuff that I think adds to that world building that you're doing so. But you know that's that's my personal philosophy, is that swearing isn't maybe so bad, but yeah some, some people just don't like.
Speaker 3:Some people are turned off by swearing or uh right, yeah, and it happens. So I thought it was real in my mind. I was writing and dialogues that did happen in real life. I guess some people don't like reality, that kind of reality in fiction. They want a reality in fiction that's not so close to the real thing. I don't know.
Speaker 2:So did you write this in Spanish and then have it translated to english, or did you write it in english? I know that when you start the game, you can.
Speaker 3:You can play it in either, uh, spanish, english or portuguese, I believe yeah, I wrote it in English to practice, cool, and then I translated it to Spanish and it's localized. Because some things can be translated exactly as they are Right and because the JV Studio doesn't have a way to export translation sheets with all the lines of dialogue, you have to do it manually in engine, element by element. It's a really hard process, but that gave me the option to I don't have to stick to the same number of lines. I can write more dialogue in a different language or less dialogue for the same conversation to adapt to. They probably say different things in each language, but that sounds better and makes more sense to a native speaker in their culture. So it was harder but also gave me freedom to do that. I don't know if I can explain myself.
Speaker 2:No, that makes sense. I think I might have to do another playthrough in Spanish and kind of brush off some of my Spanish skills and see if I can pick up some of those differences. That'd be fun. So let's say Pine Creek were to have a crossover event with any video game character, who would you choose and why?
Speaker 3:Wow with any video game character. Who would you choose and why? Wow with any video game character?
Speaker 2:Yeah, or franchise. So if there was going to be, like you know, like a multiverse Marvel type thing, a crossover event where you'd have characters from, I don't want to give you answers, I want you to answer. But you know you can choose from any character in any video game that would appear in your world that you created in Pine Creek, or to have your characters appear in that world.
Speaker 3:That's a very nice question, very interesting one. Probably anyone from Night in the Woods, even though they are animals, but I think the tone is quite similar. Yeah, it's kind of an inspiration. That wasn't that obvious, but yeah, the first thing that comes to mind is Night in the Woods. I love that what do you think it could happen?
Speaker 2:That's a good idea. You might need to write that down. I could see it, though. There's similar vibes going on. I think it's a good one. I think it's a great answer.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Marco, you're an indie developer making games and you mentioned a couple games that you played in the past. Do you still find time to play for fun as I get older? Mentioned a couple games that you played in the past. Do you still?
Speaker 3:find time to play for fun. As I get older, I find it extremely harder to to find time to play games. I've been playing persona 5 for three years already and I'm not even halfway through it. And I've been a year already playing Grandia and I just don't see an end to it. But also JRPGs are way longer than they should be Right. So right now, to relieve stress from daily life, I tend to play more arcade games, like I've been playing a ton of Dod on patchy lately.
Speaker 3:Oh, that game's so good I love that game and also, yeah right, I've been playing racing games and something that I can just pick up and play for 20 minute sessions and do something else. That's why I mainly do right now I'm with you.
Speaker 2:I mean it's fun to do some of those big story games and when you can find the time it's great.
Speaker 2:But it is harder to do and the way that I play a lot of you know it depends.
Speaker 2:But you know I do tend to find myself playing a lot more of those arcade games, like you mentioned, just because you can play for 20 minutes and then go on to do whatever else you're doing. And that's one of the reasons that I actually love the Game Boy so much is that so much of the game works so well, like to play in 20 to 30 minutes time and then you can you know you can save it, or maybe it's the type of game that you don't need to save, like it's a more arcade type game. Even with Pine Creek, you know, you can, I think it it took me about three, four hours to beat or finish the game and then when I did my second playthrough, because I was curious about getting a slightly different ending, uh, you're able to do it in a couple hours and you know that's. To be able to do a full game like that in just two to three hours time is something that I appreciate and I've always appreciated and I I think that it works really well on the Game Boy system.
Speaker 3:Yeah, thanks. I wanted to make a game that players can finish. They can actually enjoy the ending, because the ending was important. So that's why it was, by design, a short game, because I wanted players to don't lose the thread of the story, don't lose the interest I wanted to enjoy, if not like a movie, maybe a mini series or something, something quick, something they can keep the interest fresh.
Speaker 2:I love that. When I was reading a little bit more, when I was trying to find more articles about you and the game, I found that you dabble in a little bit of music production as well.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I still have a band with a friend, it's a duo called we make.
Speaker 2:Syncwave, it's called night runner. Um, yep, yeah, we ah fun. I saw in the in the thumbnails, because you did a 3d remake of pine creek for for steam on on pcs, and I noticed that one of the characters has a night wave t-shirt. So that's a that's a fun inclusion right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it was shameless self-promotion.
Speaker 2:Oh, I love that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think this year I turned 10 years working on that project, so yeah, I've had some time working on music production.
Speaker 2:Right on, music can have a big influence when you're working on your, your stuff, uh, your games. Are you listening to music while you do that? Is that any particular album, artist or genre of music that you that you listen to while you, while you work?
Speaker 3:uh, I mostly listen to ambient music because that helps me focus while I'm coding or writing dialogue. It doesn't distract me, it helps me with concentration. So I have a lot of playlists from a lot of artists and probably sometimes, if I'm stressed out, I mix the ambient music with a little of ASMR videos for extra relaxation, because coding is really stressful to me.
Speaker 2:Sure yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so that's what mainly I listen to, but music with lyrics it's distracting to me while I'm doing that. So that's the reason to pick instrumental music.
Speaker 2:I'm the same way. I listen to a lot of lo-fi music when I'm working or trying to focus. I love music with lyrics, but it can be difficult for me to focus as well when I'm trying to listen to lyrics and write something or do whatever I'm doing. Tell me just a little bit about Nightwave and that project and the music that you're making night runner band night runner. I'm sorry, yeah, yeah don't worry.
Speaker 3:Well, we, we released a couple of albums these past 10 years. Uh, we even had the opportunity to collaborate with uh Sexbank from I forgot the name from Ninja Sex Party. My memory gets worse. Every year we released an animated music video with him. Oh cool, we reached a couple of million plays on Spotify. It was a fun time working on Synthwave, but I kind of got tired of it. I think I had more things to say here um making games. I think I already did everything I had to do in the music reel, so I just thought it was it was time to move on to other, to other endeavors.
Speaker 2:Sure, can you tell me a little bit about any upcoming projects that you have for carmelo electronics or stuff that uh fans like myself can look forward to?
Speaker 3:oh yeah, I'm working uh sequel to pine creek. It's not not really a sequel because they are the same protagonist, but in a whole different adventure. It's more like a road trip, coming of age, a monster battling game. Oh, interesting, this time it's set in Mexico, in a fictional Mexico, and you'll see, it's a way bigger game but I having a a ton of fun with it. I'm planning to include a lot of different music genres using uh, using my music production experience and also I'm learning to, to draw better, to make better 3d art, to, to improve my writing, my coding. I'm putting my best in this sequel. I'm still working on the title of the game. I don't think Pine Creek 2 will stick. I'll have to come up with a better title for the game, but it will be a fun game. That's the word.
Speaker 2:I'm excited. Will that be for PCs, or where are you releasing it to?
Speaker 3:I will release it for PC. It will be awesome to have it on more consoles, but that will depend if I can get a publisher that helps me with the, with the ports and everything.
Speaker 3:It's still a few years away from being released, since it's a 3D Unity game and right now I'm doing it mostly myself, so it's still it will take a while. But as my design philosophy, I want every bit of the game to have meaning and be fun or be interesting, so I try to stay up to my quality standards. Yeah, so you can expect that from the sequel of Pine Creek.
Speaker 2:Excellent, I'm super excited. Tell you what, marco. I want to thank you so much for taking the time today to talk to me a little bit about just Pine Creek and then your experience creating Pine Creek and just a little bit more about yourself. We didn't get too much into the actual story and that's kind of by design. I want folks to to go out there and play your game and experience it for themselves. I think it's quite worth it and they can. Listeners you know the folks that are listening. You can. You can check out Marco's game, carmelo Electronics on itchio. You can buy it either the physical or the ROM version, the digital version on Incubate Games and I believe there's also a 3D remake of Pine Creek on Steam available as well. So a lot of different places folks can get a hold of your game and play.
Speaker 2:Okay, Thank you so much Totally man, Unless there's anything else you wanted to to get in there. I think you've answered all my questions.
Speaker 3:Thank you so much for for inviting me and it was a pretty fun conversation, and thanks for having patience with my English and the time I take to come up with the words.
Speaker 2:You were perfect man, your answers were perfect and I think that you know I really do appreciate your time and you coming on here. Thank you.
